The issue of the police being armed has arisen again after the recent shooting of policemen in Kawerau.
SunLive hit the streets in Tauranga on the weekend to find out what locals think of frontline police officers carrying guns.
Posted: 04:34pm Sat 12 Mar, 2016
Should police carry guns?
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COMPETITIONS
39 comments
Firearms
Posted on 12-03-2016 17:34 | By Kenworthlogger
Funny how people dont mind the criminals having firearms.... How does arming the police have anything to do with criminals arming themselves. Why do people think it is linked?
Law protection
Posted on 12-03-2016 18:00 | By hapukafin
With the rate our crime is raising with drug induced criminal our police needs to be action ready when they are on duty to protect themselves and the public.Look at the selection of auto weapons recently seized.How did these ever get into the country.The question has to be asked.The next thing is that the police should be allowed to shoot first if a verble demand is not obeyed.
Kenworthlogger
Posted on 12-03-2016 19:51 | By Old
You are so right. The trouble is to many good e goods In this world. Wait till one of there love ones get killed, or a pour cop just doing his job. Then hell will break lose. Maybe the police are quietly arming more. Who would want there joB
dead right....
Posted on 12-03-2016 20:19 | By GreertonBoy
Kenworthlogger.... CRIMINALS will always get guns... the police should at least be able to protect themselves (and the public) with equal arms. I find it funny that people HATE guns and want them all banned/destroyed... but if they are held hostage by a bad person with a gun or other weapon, the victims will be wishing the cops could come and help... and bring some GOOD guns... people need to remember the old addage "Guns dont kill people... people kill people" It is so true. When boiled down, people are afraid of guns 'in the wrong hands' not the guns themselves. I personally believe more 'good people' should have guns and there should be a real blitz on getting guns off bad people. Guns have been invented, it is too late to pretend they can all be removed.... there needs to be more GOOD guns than BAD.
Fire arms licence's
Posted on 12-03-2016 23:01 | By Theodorus
The New Zealand law as who is allowed to have a firearms licence is very strict and so it must be We do not want the same law here as in America where every body can carry a firearm.The number of people getting shot and killed there even by police is shocking!By Theodorus.
Not our decision really
Posted on 13-03-2016 09:08 | By astex
The decision on police carrying guns should be made by the police themselves and no-one else. THEY are the ones facing these scumbags and most police already have quick access to guns when required. At the moment the majority of officers are against openly arming police and we should respect that. Interesting though that countries where police ARE armed have higher numbers of shootings and shot police.
@GreertonBoy
Posted on 13-03-2016 13:24 | By morepork
You make a very good point; we can't "uninvent" guns so we should ensure that more "good guys" have them than "bad guys". The problem with that is that you would then start arming the general population. It would be wrong to force police to carry guns if they don't want to, but we should support them being armed (provided they receive proper specialist training in the use and deployment of weapons), if they decide they DO need to be armed. When visiting the USA, there is always at the back of my mind the possibility that the driver who just cut me off,might not be able to read and write,yet could be armed...it does make you think. I found cops (who are visibly armed) to be unfailingly polite and helpful. But I still wouldn't want to see us living like that...
attitude
Posted on 13-03-2016 19:09 | By GreertonCynic
The last interview summed it up. The local police already have access to firearms if they need them. I will always remember the NSW police shooting a 13yr old in the head for a traffic offense. BANG, "stop or I'll shoot".
True Morepork...
Posted on 14-03-2016 02:43 | By GreertonBoy
Guns are a real cunnundrum... I am for more people being armed as the criminals are unlikely to surrender thiers... but the police need to be able to at least match the average nong with a gun... having armed police may result in less criminals knowing the police have guns too... crims are generally cowards and want the all powerful feeling having a gun and the police not being armed.... if the police also carry weapons, maybe some criminals will think twice about bringing a firearm to a crime? I dont know what the answer is, but the good guys need to match the bad guys at least.... that is my opinion... give our police the training and the firearms
Remember to take into account
Posted on 14-03-2016 18:47 | By astex
The four officers shot last week WERE all armed and it did not stop the shootings OR make them any safer.
@iknow
Posted on 15-03-2016 15:32 | By morepork
Right on. Wearing a gun doesn't make anybody bullet proof and it is well worth remembering that in discussions of this nature. I didn't know the cops involved were actually armed; thanks for that.
Police training
Posted on 17-03-2016 12:00 | By tundra
My concerns is, what other trade does 3months training sufficient for?Even Hairdressing has a pre poly tech cause.Also mechanics need to do a pre trade course.Police get 3 months training and now you want to give them guns!Something doesn't equate here!
Tundra
Posted on 18-03-2016 15:27 | By Kenworthlogger
Are you concerned that the criminals have no firearms training????? They have no problems using firearms. I used to be in the Army and can assure you i could teach anyone to use a firearm in a day. Its not rocket science mate.
Wild west
Posted on 23-03-2016 07:46 | By Amnesia Oasis
Derrrrrr ! Just arm police, that will solve the problem. What an intelligent conclusion. All you cop-armers,....take a look at the US where you have intensely keyed-up trigger-happy cops roaming the streets shooting barrages of gunfire at anything that looks remotely suspicious, killing innocent bystanders in many cases. Is that what you want for NZ ??
Amnesia
Posted on 23-03-2016 09:03 | By Kenworthlogger
Take a look at Mogadishu Somalia where the general population out arm law enforcement. Would you like that here? Law enforcement officers have a right to be safe and be armed at work. Put yourself in their shoes. Would you go to a gunfight with peperspray? Im sure even you can work out that one.
Mogadishu ??
Posted on 23-03-2016 10:30 | By Amnesia Oasis
Thanks for supporting my argument. I appreciate your help. The Mogadishu analogy is precisely the reason why arming cops only exacerbates the situation. When the delinquents know that cops are sure to be armed it only makes them even more determined to be superiorly armed to the cops!
Amnesia
Posted on 23-03-2016 15:07 | By Kenworthlogger
Surely even some one like you realises there is no effective law enforcement in Mogadishu as the locals ase so heavily armed it Is suicide to expect any law enforcement to go patrol without any sidearms.
Amnsesia
Posted on 23-03-2016 15:35 | By Kenworthlogger
Basically what happened in Somalia the general population was so heavily armed they outgunned the police and effectily murdered all the law enforcement officers. Because the police were outgunned they could not protect themselves or people like you and eventually lost control to the local milita. All police outposts were stormed by heavily armed general population and basically murdered. This is what happenes if your police cannot defend themselves. Dont let it happen here!
@Kenworthlogger
Posted on 28-03-2016 17:45 | By morepork
I too, was in the army and trained in the use of SLR, Bren, and Sten (no handguns). It isn't about how long it takes someone to learn the "mechanics" of stripping and re-assembling a weapon; it is about teaching them control in tight situations. To go for a gun as a LAST RESORT, only when their own or some other's life is in imminent danger. The other main point you haven't addressed is whether or not police WANT to be armed. That should be the key consideration here. I agree with you that police should be armed, but only if THEY believe it is what is necessary, and only if proper training (not just in managing weapons, but also the broader implications) is provided.
@Amnesia Oasis
Posted on 28-03-2016 18:00 | By morepork
If you read my post you will have seen I DID take a look at the US (have done on countless occasions) and, as a result, I know that what you are saying is mostly urban myth. Occasionally, mistakes are made by cops with firearms, but as a percentage of incidents where US cops are required to fire shots, it is tiny. Nevertheless, I stated that I wouldn't like to see us living that way...It is not armed cops that worries me; it is armed civilians (and that may follow as a consequence). Cops are entitled to the best protection we can provide and also to moral support from the community (unless what they did is blatantly stupid, immoral, or unnecessarily dangerous). If Police request weapons, we should be prepared to support that, with the proviso that proper training is given. I hope it doesn't come to that.
Wild west mentality
Posted on 02-04-2016 15:15 | By Amnesia Oasis
Unless you have been living on Mars lately, it is becoming quite clear that cops in the US can and will kill people, even unarmed people, even on video, and do so with impunity. The total for 2014? 1,100 people killed by those sworn to protect. That is an average of three people a day. Hardly what you could call "occasionally" or a "tiny" amount as you so flippantly claim. Don't misinterpret me, I am not saying all victims were innocent, however gun violence against citizens carried out by US cops has risen sharply. When we look at citizens killed by US cops in 2013 -2014, deaths increased 44 percent in this short time; 763 people were killed by cops in 2014, an increase of 44%. Armed cops are a menace to society. We don't want them here in NZ.
@AmnesiaOasis
Posted on 02-04-2016 17:27 | By morepork
We can agree we don't want armed cops here. Nevertheless, I would find it acceptable if the COPS want it and provided they are properly trained. There was nothing flippant in my claims; even if we agree your statistics (which I don't,because they contradict and 763 cannot be an increase of 44% over 1100) 1,100 (and that excludes the ones in the 1100 who were bad guys) in a population of 400 million can only be called "tiny" (.000275%). If ONE of those people is one of your loved ones, then even ONE is too many. The issue is not about what happens in America, or Australia, or ANYWHERE else, it is about what happens HERE. If you fiercely believe cops should NOT be armed, perhaps you should try doing the job for a while...?
Amnesia
Posted on 02-04-2016 19:50 | By Kenworthlogger
So basically people like Amnesia dont value the lives of our law enforcement officers. Are we living in the USA?? No. How about quoting me some figures from Australian law enforcement who are all armed. We all know they do a much better job than their American counterparts. Morepork i too used the SLR or FN FAL depending on who trained you as to what you called it. Nice rifle especially when paired with a scope infantary trilux.
Armed cops undesirable
Posted on 06-04-2016 10:46 | By Amnesia Oasis
Arming cops can lead to violence spiralling out of control. In places where cops are not routinely armed, a significant percentage of criminals will not arm themselves either (since, for example, armed robbery often carries a heavier sentence than robbery). Once the cops are armed, criminals who do not match the cops capability operate under a strong disadvantage. Therefore, if cops become routinely armed, the criminals will arm themselves correspondingly. Consequently, increased weapon possession by both cops and criminals will result in more prevalent use, because in situations where arms may not be currently used, for example a police pursuit, both sides carrying weapons will mean that they will consider shooting as an option which they previously didn't have
Amnesia
Posted on 06-04-2016 12:18 | By Kenworthlogger
What a load of rubbish! Senior constable Len snee who was shot dead by Jan Molenaar in 2009 in Napier was UNARMED. 2 other officers and a member of the public who were all UNARMED were also shot. They survived. Sargent Don Wilkinson UNARMED was shot dead in 2008 in Auckland. His partner was also shot. He was UNARMED. These were the last 2 NZ police officers killed on duty UNARMED. How many more would you like Amnesia. Would you like to be the one to explain to these officers wives and children that people like you do not want police to be able to defend themselves with firearms?
British example
Posted on 06-04-2016 16:28 | By Amnesia Oasis
Let's not copy Australia where the cops routinely carry guns. Over there they have numerous fatal incidents every year where nervous trigger-happy cops shoot dead offenders who are armed with knives, axes, sticks and stones and the like. These offenders could have been confronted without the use of lethal force if these gung-ho cops had not had easy and immediate access to firearms. On numerous occasions we have seen that the British cops handle these same situations quite effectively without the use of guns.
Amnesia
Posted on 07-04-2016 09:40 | By Kenworthlogger
OMG this is painful. Clearly you support offenders with weapons. If an offender is stupid enough to attack a law enforcement officer with a WEAPON OF ANY TYPE then they can expext to be shot dead. Amnesia by your rock solid support of offenders being able to be armed with whatever weapon they choose and your dislike of police being armed for defence one can only come to the conclusion you are an offender yourself.
For the people, not the state
Posted on 07-04-2016 16:24 | By Amnesia Oasis
British police are proud of their history of policing "by consent". Unlike the US and Australia, the idea that police serve the people, not the state. In Britain policing is done by consent. This means the people are the police and the police are the people. They enjoy the support of the majority of the public they serve. The routine arming of cops would damage that support and undermine this key principle. Arming the cops will only lead to an escalation in the criminal element carrying guns to match the cops firepower. Most serious criminals know that use of guns against cops will lead to a very short criminal career! British police are exceptionally well trained to diffuse potentially violent situations. In contrast US and Aust police are trained to immediately escalate potentially violent situations and pre-emptively strike.
Amnesia
Posted on 07-04-2016 17:10 | By Kenworthlogger
Go live in Britian then....
Amnesia
Posted on 07-04-2016 17:47 | By Kenworthlogger
So why then are British police routinely armed outside 10 Dowling st with SA80 assult rifles? Please explain that one Amnesia?
Respect
Posted on 08-04-2016 07:39 | By Amnesia Oasis
British and NZ cops are typically not armed. One could reasonably assume that this would lead to more officer fatalities, but that
@Amnesia Oasis
Posted on 08-04-2016 15:29 | By morepork
I wouldn't go as far as KenworthLogger in saying you are probably an offender, but I can certainly see how he arrived at that conclusion. You talk about "Respect" but you show none. You talk about how terrible it is in places where police are armed but your statistics are terrible and have no basis in fact. KL already pointed out the UNARMED cops who get shot while doing their duty, but you just dismiss it as not being congruent with your position. The arguments you present for unarmed cops have all been heard before and are often sound, but they are all trumped by what the people at the coal face want. It is THEIR call and we should support them if they make it. Until you get to BE a cop you don't get to say whether they need guns or not.
Well said Morepork
Posted on 08-04-2016 17:15 | By Kenworthlogger
Totally agree with your comments. Amnesia still waiting for your answer about routinely armed police at Downing street, Heathrow airport etc. Funny how the British public dont seem intimidated or opressed in these areas. Police should have the choice weather or not to bear arms.
Don't blindly follow the rest
Posted on 09-04-2016 12:37 | By Amnesia Oasis
We recoil with shock to gun-toting cops across the Tasman and the US. We don
Criminal cops
Posted on 09-04-2016 13:38 | By putamadre
So New Zealand if you thought for one minute that the number of cases of innocent people being killed in out of control police pursuits, that the police hierarchy refuse to acknowledge, was bad you
@Keywee
Posted on 10-04-2016 10:47 | By morepork
No one can deny there have been some tragic incidents involving NZ Police and guns. But citing ONLY those incidents gives a biased picture. There have also been successful closures by armed police of incidents where there was real danger to the public. And we have to believe that lessons have been learned. My position can be summarized as follows: If Police want guns we should respect that and support them, BUT, we must make sure that the training is extended beyond just knowing how to strip a weapon, and police are trained to the point where they can confidently defuse and resolve tense situations, with the use of a weapon only as a LAST RESORT when their own or the public's lives are being threatened. Our cops ARE world class and we need to keep them that way. They deserve our support; we should see they get it.
Right on Keywee
Posted on 10-04-2016 15:54 | By Amnesia Oasis
You hit the nail right on the head. Halatau Ki
Amnesia
Posted on 10-04-2016 17:26 | By Kenworthlogger
As usual what a load of rubbish. Kiwis do not recoil with shock when seeing Australian Law enforcement with sidearms. In fact its he number 1 destination for Kiwis holidaying and Kiwis are moving there in droves. Obviously they dont mind at all. I see you have not refuted the claim you are probably an offender ah.... What does that say?
No never
Posted on 11-04-2016 11:52 | By Cydifor
We cannot become like the USA who shoot then ask questions later. Trigger-happy cops who have not long left school with a sense of power, not for us thanks! If police have guns, the crims will get bigger guns and then we will be in the middle. Not a good thought at all!
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